I want to pose the question, how do you all handle criticism? No band gets praise only, if you do then people are lying to make you feel better. I've heard or seen a lot of the "I don't care what you say, I make music because I love it" response, as well as the "Man, I suck, I should just give up" response. Let's face it, nobody likes criticism. But, I think it's a necessary part of being in a band. How will you ever get better if you don't listen to other people's criticisms and change some things? For example, last summer my band was just starting out, and my brother came to one of our shows. Afterwords I asked him to be honest about what he thought, and he laid it all out for me. Some of it was hard to hear, but it really helped. I think you have to at least listen to criticism and consider what's said...not like you have to change everything after you get some negative comments, but at least consider it and think as to whether the criticisms have any merit. What do you all think?

To me it depends on who its coming from and the context of the conversation.

When I step off stage and have some stranger come up to me and say "you know what your band needs" it is usually followed by that person explaining they can fill that need.

Also if some random stranger says "I think that song would work better with a C Minor instead of a D Major" I just ignor them.

However, if I were to ask someone to tell me what they think we could do to get better and they gave some helpful critisism like "I think this songs tempo is too slow." or "you are missing the change here" or "I would add a second chorus here" I would listen.

I think basically it has to be something more then "I dont like it" and needs to come with an option that might work better. It also needs to come from someone I trust or have proven to be able to do better.

I prefer advice from people that I pay for it.

I'm my own worst critic. Everything I record, play sing etc, it's never right. That's why it's taken me over two years to complete the new CD. When people
Like my music or say I'm good I always wonder, are they just saying that? I am obsessed with perfecting my talent. I'll practice at least three to four hours a day, usually till my fingers bleed. If someone does say hey man, that song is really bad or your vocals really sucked there, I listen. I re-evaluate the material and I have actually cut songs for that reason. I am an entertainer, I want an audience who appreciates me, those people are my customers so when they talk I listen. If they are only trying to be mean I can ignore thier criticism, but there is always small truths even in those cases. Bottom line, if you love music and performing never stop trying to perfect it, it can only make you better.

Good points. But Dandee, I certainly don't think advice or criticism has to be solicited to be valid. I'm with Rele; if someone comes out and says "your music sucks" then there is probably some reason for it. If he mentions why, then I can think about it and decide whether he had a point. I say the more feedback the better.I could be missing a beat every time, but until someone says, "man you're really off at that part" I might never know.

Please, Maury . . . when have you ever missed a beat? Don't take any guff from anyone who says you did.

I think Dandee is totally right.... There is cirticism that helps out, like people that have takin the time to listen to your music and are able to tell you, "Hey this is where you can improve on". Then there are people who are complete strangers, or really have no basis to critisize. I mean, if your someone who has no idea how to give consrtuctive criticism, I really don't wanna hear it. If you have nothing actually good to say, and something that can be helpful to me, that WILL help me improve, then it doesn't really effect who I am and the way I make music. Anyways thats my 2 cents...

I remember stopping "Watercolor" early at a show, Jim. Luckily, nobody noticed.
I guess being constructive is the key when it comes to criticism. I just don't think it needs to be laced with compliments. We're adults, we should be able to take it.

quote:

I remember stopping "Watercolor" early at a show, Jim. Luckily, nobody noticed.

Ha ha ha ha . . . ! Okay. I'll give you that one.

yup thats it, I mean I asked people to be honest... and they were... and that has been helpful to me, made me learn about what we need to do and improve on. Every band needs that in order to make themselves tighter better and make their music sound great. Cuz if you can't recognize someones opionion that can help, then you really can't improve for the people that would be listenin to your music

I find most of the people who offer critisism to me are drunk family members who don't know their ass from an instrument.
Also, anytime anyone tells me how to make my music or band more "commercial" I want to deck them.

I treat the good stuff much as I treat the bad stuff.
I play for me and no one else. If I think it rocks, then that's all I need.
There are always going to be people that don't like what I do and there will always be people that love what I do. It truly makes no difference either way. When I start to think my band or myself sucks too much to even be onstage, that's when I worry about it.
otherwise, it's all rock and roll.

I'd actually like more criticism, if it's the kind I can use. Being told you rock all the time doesn't make you any better. If there's something holding us back and we need to hear it, then help us out please. I think Harry is the only person to ever give me that kind of advice: "that key is no good for your voice" and shit like that. he knows what we've done, what we are trying to do. Maybe if enough people told us the truth it would convice the rest of my band to get a real singer or something.

We do get tips about stuff we can't change or are already working on, like: "you need better equipment." Thanks for the newsflash pal, you going to buy it for me?

Being told you suck is pretty hard to work with too. Plus, I already know that.

i probably should keep out of this one since i shoot my damn mouth off enough as it is. but that hasn't stopped me yet. i'll never learn...

personally, i'd like more hate mail on my shit but my only guess is that the people who don't like what i do prefer to not pay attention. fair enough.

soni (ex-phase, ex-albq) used to threaten to review my reviews. man! i was really looking forward to that but alas she left town...

as for non-musicians (like me) critcizing musicians (like you), you gotta understand that most of the crowd can hardly tell if & when you make mistakes. that's the least of our concerns.
but, unfortunately,yeah, most of it is a gut reaction : i like the sound/i don't like the sound.
i /we have no idea what key you're in or if your old strings are what keeps you going out of tune.
as always, passion & performance are key.

and of course, like everyone knows, if you put yourself in the public eye, you need to stand up to people not liking you. [fuck 'em.]
BUT
no one owes you anything, except a fair chance and at least an open-minded listen or two. [conversely, fuck ya.]

which brings me back to an earlier point:
where's my hate mail, you bastards?
except bzrker joe and some guy who signed himself "captain cunt" a few years ago, i haven't got any. slack motherfuckers.

I guess it all depend's on why you are playing as to whether the critizism is useful.
My person experience is that more often than not, the person with something to say is just some drunk taking the opportunity to use up my break with mindless blather (possible how some of you feel about me - who is that old fuck with all the stories and nothing to back them up with)?
But if you are out there to tell your story, or you have the goal of some type of commercial success, then like it or not, you need to listen to what is being said - even if you discount it later.
Everybody has some perspective on what they see, and all KNOW ahat they will or wont pay to see again
I kinda like for my habits to at least pay for themselves - and that means pleasing the people that I play for.

nomad

For anyone who's worked in the service industry as a manager, you'd know that when a customer complains they are (usually) trying to do two things:

1. Get action on an unacceptable condition
2. Trying to help.

If you complain, get a problem resolved, and the manager treats you with civility, you're likely to return to that business. But first you have the debate with yourself to decide if it's worth it....do you really want to tackle that drive thru again, or will you just drive on down the block without giving them a chance?

So in this situation, you're all promoted to manager and you have to determine the level of service you provide to your "complaining" customer. First, put yourself in his shoes....you've all been there. Second, is this a customer you want to keep, or should he just "crawl" on down the street?

Assuming your main idea is repeat business: For my experience, the drunk that takes up your breaks (and hangs out bugging the wife/significant other during the show) probably won't remember the conversation tomorrow and isn't there for the music...no he wants the booze. Low service level because he'll still be there next week. The one that comes up to you wanting to be in the band is probably impressed with your performance and wants to "belong" in some way....take their number or put them on your mailing list and definitely invite them to come out and support your shows. Medium level of service. Captain America was right about most people in the audience not picking up on whether you missed a note or which key you're in - I'm one of them. But most of the really GOOD musicians I've known were like what Rele describes...perfectionists....constantly trying to improve. I find myself constantly befoozled by the things that man of mine will pick at. So.....if another musician likes you enough to approach respectfully and EXCHANGE ideas....High Level of Service. Everything else is a matter of degree and WHY you do what you do. But no matter what kind of criticism you get, I find it's always best not to bite first.....say thank you, and take your time to think about it, and laugh when you can. Criticism is an exercise in self-control....if you can keep your temper, you always come out the winner.

Don't underestimate the effect you may have on people that don't know you....there's something to that "rockstar" appeal that makes people want to belong and hang out. A little TLC can get you some good supporters...if you're willing to be tolerant that is. Happy customers will think you're cool and tell others.....it's great when you know somebody who's "in the band." It's a tender thing....don't abuse it. If you're not a "people" person, hook yourself up with an old lady (or old man) who will field most of the drunks and socialize while sittin' in the bar. That way you can have your beer in peace.

Now if somebody is heckling you, interfering with your show, or makes an unreasonable personal attack on you (then won't drop it when you've responded calmly).....let 'er rip.

For myself on bands/music, I pretty much limit myself to saying I like something or I don't....but I really like things that are different and surprising. Listening to you all talk about the specifics (like hearing at high frequencies?) goes right over my head.

Long Live the Rakes Of Mallow!!!

THIS IS A REALLY GOOD THREAD!!!

Whew, I haven't posted in awhile, but I figured this would be a good time to get back into the mix of things. I didn't realize I had some serious reading to do then I came across this forum and figured...hey, why not, I'm at work, I've got nothing else to do. As for my band since we've started playing live, we've experienced alot more criticism such as the post-gig, "You guys fucking rock," to the "You guys are getting better!" For the most part, I don't hold my friends' opinion with too much weight, because you never know what's real or fake. I appreciate it but I move on to my next beer. However, I do appreciate when a fellow band or an experience musican gives us a few pointers such as pointing out tips to being a better live band, tearing down fast and properly as we all know that can be a problem, how to set-up are music in ours sets so we don't wear ourselves out, tuning in-between songs which we finally realized (duh), and shit like that! That type of criticism has made us a much better band. We've also learned to accept the "silent criticsm" as we like to call it. You know the stuff you learn by watching other bands, and why other bands have greater success than you. That's also helped us out alot. As for the music, I like it when people (musican or non-musician) explain to us or really point out what's missing or what's not missing, because for the most part people have good intentions. And they usually come back to listen to us, if you just listen to their ideas during our break or after the gig. Shit, they even buy us beers and lap dances, but hey, that's whole separate post. Does it mean we're gonna change anything? 98.9% of the time, nope, but what it does...is make THIRD HOUR that much more kick ass!!!! Anyway in all seriousness, I've come to the point where I've realized that it's cool to accept all forms of criticism, but at the same time, I learned to use what's gonna make us a better band. Thanks for your time!

--Third Hour
http://www.myspace.com/3rdhour

In Tanuki we're definitely our own harshest critics. Usually within a half-hour of our set we do a quick post-mortem of everything that went wrong, and so far we've never had an air-tight perfect set. With the album, we were lucky enough to have very open and honest criticism from our engineer/producer, who never made it personal and always kept a sense of humor about it.

Luckily I haven't had too much trouble with other people criticizing us at shows or about the album. Yet.

Like someone else mentioned, the criticism I handle best is the kind I can use right away. For example, I like to have a somewhat treble-heavy sound on my bass, but just the other day Steen (he rules, BTW) at Burt's told me it was too bright out in the room and that I should turn it down a little. Stuff like that is criticism I can use, in real-time.

Criticism I can't really use is stuff like "you need to jump around more on stage" or "you all should wear tight t-shirts and comb your hair forwards."

quote:

For the most part, I don't hold my friends' opinion with too much weight, because you never know what's real or fake.

Key word is friend. A good friend will always find a way to put a positive spin on things. Pay attention when they seem reluctant to come out for gigs.

You just had a couple real good examples of customer service/response to criticism on here. Joe Anderson with the payouts and Hottamale with the restaurant service. I think you could all take a page from their books. I guess it also helps if you have a solution in mind when you complain....make sure it's reasonable and clear cut like "you forgot my ketchup."

quote:

Originally posted by old lady:

Key word is friend. A good friend will always find a way to put a positive spin on things. Pay attention when they seem reluctant to come out for gigs.

I don't think I completely agree with this train of thought. Most of my goods friends try very hard to avoid seeing The Bellmont. That doesn't mean anything to me. I don't play in bands to appease my friends...I do it for me. Yeah, so my friends and many in the scene don't like what we do. That's fine. We're not the next Dokken or Whitesnake. We're just some dorks who rock it like no one else in town. That's the goal and I think we accomplish it.

Oh, and The Bellmont is playing Burts next Saturday, Sept 10 at around 10pm. If your up for some punishment, please attend.