I'm curious who came up with this concept and why it seems to be permenating into more venues?
Certainly this wasn't concocted by musicians thinking they would get more money. My only experience with this was at the District and we didn't ask for any more bookings once we were paid peanuts which took a looooong time to collect.

At least venues here don't ask you to sell tickets. If you want to make money as a band, buy some Eagles & Beatles tab books and start asking around for wedding gigs.

The best way to make money on the scene here is to play your gig and then dress in bum clothes and hit up Central on a Friday night. I've easily pulled $13 per night.

Another good way to support your band is to whore yourself.

But, my favorite method of making money on the scene is to sell liquor to minors. Not only are you lining your pocket, but your investing in the future. You gotta make these kids drunks, then you will have an audience for a few years from now.

Incidentally, I've also found that all three of these methods are a great way to pick up chicks.

Because there a lot of shit local bands that only bring 2 people to their show.

This pay scale can work in your favor,if you ensure that your audience gets drunk....for example make a drinking game out of one or two of your songs, so that every time you say a certain word, every one drinks. You know like the old Star Trek game. Then at the end of the songs, add an extra chorus or five, to ensure you get your audience shit faced. I recommend doing these songs at the middle and end of your set, and don't do more than a couple of songs like this, so that the other bands your playing with will still get an "attentive" audience. (They have those in Albuquerque?)

Also make sure that the manager/bartender shows you the sales reciept for the night....if they are not willing to do that, then they don't deserve your band.

As far as the when's and why's of this type of pay.....bars, like any business, want to make money any way they can. They figure that if you can't get drinking people into thier establishment, then you don't deserve to get paid. This concept sux for me, since most of my fans are former addicts, and don't drink. I wish I could get the coffee shops to go to this pay scale....fuck I'd be driving a real car then!

the bellmont takes offense to that, DaveFame.

well,
it is important to consider that most people here don't go to clubs to see good bands .
it is all about hanging out or sucking some pretty boy haircut model's cock.

or...
as i have said for years, to many folks, there are only 3 reasons to leave the house : to see, to be seen, or to get in a fight .

so, it is hard to get people out to your club on a weeknight, or even into YOUR club on a weekend, as opposed to the dance club (where all the girls are rubbing their clits on the barstool in their miniminimini skirts).

so, charging a cover is kind of hard in many of these instances especially for a band that no one has heard of.

i am not real sure if we are just supposed to pile this on the disdain for this place, but it is lame that they are expecting a handout to renovate.

runon sentences
and

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:

watch chubby girls dance with each other

So, you've been to a couple of Third Hour shows too, huh?

quote:

If you want to make money as a band, buy some Eagles & Beatles tab books and start asking around for wedding gigs.

And that is some serious cash. I just went to my girlfriends cousins wedding and they hired a regional wedding band consisting of 2 guitarists, drummer and bass. For a 4 hour gig where they played about half of it and the rest (in between sets) they were playing dance tunes from their PA/DJ jukebox they walked away with 1300 bucks. That's over 300 bones for a 4 hour gig approx 2 of which you're playing. $81.25 an hour. Id jump on a paying gig like that SO fast if I had the opportunity.

They sounded tight, the mix of original northern NM (ala Los Blue ventures) tunes and well done covers was great and they were pretty funny on the mic. I had a great time dancing but I kinda wished I was up there making that money.

quote:

Originally posted by The Duke City Madman:

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:

watch chubby girls dance with each other

So, you've been to a couple of Third Hour shows too, huh?

Broham, I never thought your mom and sister were that fat. Big boned, maybe!

--Third Hour
www.myspace.com/3rdhour

Simple solution, every local musician agrees to join the union, American Federation of Musians Local 618. Then the clubs have to pay if they want someone to play...instead of acting like they are doing us a frigging favor letting us play at their dive with their cheap PA and no support.

There can only be two reactions from venues. Hire only non-union bands, which if every half-decent, half-talented, half-serious band in town joined the union would leave no-one to play. Or pay us what we're worth.

It's silly how much time we spend on writing, practicing, rehearsing and all the money we spend on quality gear over the years only to be treated like second class citizens. As if a label endorsement and a big bus makes one an artist.

Plus, if you're in the union, you can get health benefits and a pension. Imagine that, a musician with a health plan.

"Get paid what we're worth"...hmm, that's a tough one. Not all bands are created equal. I've seen bands playing out that honestly should have paid the venue when they were done, they were so bad. Then I've seen bands that deserved way more than the $100 they made for the night, they were so good.
10% of the bar is not that bad of a deal if you are good and bring a lot of people. Think about it, let's say you play your 45-min set and get $100. There are 4 people in your band. That's $20/hr. for easy work. I've played shows where the crowd was good and we made $200 or more. Most of us make less than that at our day jobs, so why do we think we're worth more than that when we're playing music? Just a thought.
Also, I know the owners and bookers at the downtown clubs and they are definitely not getting rich off of a music club.

Organized musicians?

That's just crazy talk.

We usually drink about 10% of the bar so I suppose we get 10% of what we spend at the bar back, split between the bands.

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:
When I moved here in 87' the rock club scene was great, packed houses, bands made ~3x more than today.

Those must have been the days. But, rock music is dead in this town. I'm not talking about the great music or talented musicians here, but the vast majority of people here would much rather go to a dance club, watch a movie, or masturbate on their keyboard than go out and see a live rock show. Also, APD and Drunk Driving Regulation have fucked us as well. Now it seems like nobody wants to go downtown.

Respect to those of you I see down there on a regular basis. You're a dying breed.

Sounds like you should stick to casinos and weddings.

quote:

Originally posted by mc:
"Get paid what we're worth"...hmm, that's a tough one. Not all bands are created equal. I've seen bands playing out that honestly should have paid the venue when they were done, they were so bad. Then I've seen bands that deserved way more than the $100 they made for the night, they were so good.

True, but when you look at what a touring national act gets at a club like the Launchpad, guarunteed, compared to some percentage of possible money from the bar, there is a huge difference.

If a band like Fu Manchu can get $1000 a night guaruntee (though they often get $2000, I'm just being conservative) and a local band gets $200...that's an $800 difference. Somewhere in that middle ground is what a good local band should be making per night.

I'm all for inexperienced bands playing first or dead last on a Tuesday night for $50. Been there. At that point it IS a gift to be given a chance on stage. But once you've done it a hundred times, opened for people, gone on your own tours, then you bring something more to the table and it's time to re-negotiate rates.

quote:

I've played shows where the crowd was good and we made $200 or more. Most of us make less than that at our day jobs, so why do we think we're worth more than that when we're playing music? Just a thought.
Also, I know the owners and bookers at the downtown clubs and they are definitely not getting rich off of a music club.

For some of us our day jobs are shit. They are what we do to put food on the table while we build music careers. All of our time, money, and energy go into improving as songwriters, performers, instrument repair technicians, and instrumentalists. Why not, then, expect to make more than what we make at our day job. Now, if you have a serious day job and make lots of cash, nevermind. Music is probaby a very serious hobby for you at best. But for me and a lot of other folks in town, for the last twenty years, it's been an investment and a
semi-professional (and at times a professional) gig. I spend 40 hours a week on music, have for the last five years. And I go to grad school and raise a kid and have a job.

Here's the thing about being a "local musician" in my book. It's a derogatory term, but it doesn't have to be. Right now it's used like, "Him? He's just a local musician." Meaning he's obviously not serious or professional and can probably barely play.

Then you have what I call a "local musician". Anyone who plays music and lives in a community. Doesn't matter if it's LA, NYC, or ABQ. A local musician provides a service, just like the local doctor or cabinet maker. In a town like ABQ, where good national bands more often pass by rather than stop and play, the local musician becomes all the more important.

Some people live for live music. There are occasions such as weddings and parties that demand it. Who's going to play for the community? Eric Clapton? Jay-Z? No, it's the people who live here.

I'm proud to be a local musician. We have Grammy winners and national act sidemen living here. I'm not talking about the folks who moved away and got famous...they prove my point too...but studio players from LA who are moving here and communting. There's a crap load of "retired" badasses in town too to play with.

With the film industry throwing money at NM, the music industry...well the studio industry...is bound to follow to an extent...more jobs for local musicians.

All I'm trying to say is that it is a life-long craft and anyone who sticks with it deserves compensation when they step on stage or in the studio.

For the record, union wage for a single night is about $150. A four person band would make $600 a night...a bit steep for a new band...but for a local band on an indie label willing to promote the show, that's still less than half of what Fu Manchu would get. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

As to what club owners are going to do...they can't do anything if the musicians are unionized. We would even have collective bargaining power to negotiate rates. So instead of the $150 above, we negotiate a more feasable rate for weeknights, like $75 per person. That's a liveable wage. The point is, if we don't do anything, then nothing will be done. We will continue to get shafted and bitch about it.

Oh and I know two club owners/promoters as well, and they both own homes and have a nicer car than I do...so I'm pretty sure they are making money.

Again, this is all just my stupid opinion. It just frustrates the crap out of me to hear musicians depreciate themselves and their role in the community.

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:

quote:

Originally posted by DaveFame:
Sounds like you should stick to casinos and weddings.

Since the 10% bars are all downtown except for one and don't get crowds regularly due to all reasons elaborated on this forum I'll leave those venues for you Dave.


There's plenty of people in ABQ who dig live rock, go to Uptown or Heroes and Legends or Nuts and Bolts or Joker's or the Barley Room. These places all pay decent or even good base rates and people drink, dance and have fun. I agree wholeheartily that the scene has changed as DUI laws and social mores have changed. Most times in life change is good but since musicians are at the end of the food chain we get cuffed worse in downtimes.

You won't see myself or anyone I know downtown ever. Why pay to park to wade thru hoboes in order to pay a cover for local bands? The scene is great for the young, so enjoy your youth as long as possible. Life goes by fast!

I've yet to play a casino or wedding but am open to it, I have mouths to feed and a mortgage but don't depend on music, just enjoy the fuck out of it. When you are older your perspective will change assuming you still play music 20 yrs from now.

Sounds like you should stick to bad bar rock venues then.....

Once again, DaveFame cuts to the chase. And seeing that pretty much all the bands and musicians that participate on this board are interested in performing original music and exploring creativity for people who want to hear original, creative music, drumtiger's platform and insults are hard for me to understand.

Let me explain what I mean...(me in bold type)

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:
...Most of you are too young to know this but 20 yrs ago the Music Scene here was much better and cover bands made a lot more than nowadays...

That wasn't a "scene". That was musicians being human jukeboxes. Giving up a large percentage of their pay to "promoters" like Buffalino and Chuck D. The closed mindedness of all those involved, and the refusal to allow original music to be played at those dives is one the main reasons the music scene you are now criticizing exists......to break away from being background noise in a Meat Market, while whoring out other people's music.

The real scene was in full swing with many diverse bands. Bands recording and touring, record labels forming and bars that you refer to closing down due to many reasons. One reason was the inherent boringness of watching good musicians lamely hash out music that was already on the radio. Another was that a lot of mainstream Rock at that time was getting boring, predictable and down right lame. This is also the beginning time of the DownTown clubs starting to appear.

By the way, have you ever paid ASCAP for your exploitation of other people's original work?

...I get a kick out of the pro 10% crowd who are probably all under the age of 25.

Bold statement from someone who admits,"You won't see myself or anyone I know downtown ever. Why pay to park to wade thru hoboes in order to pay a cover for local bands? The scene is great for the young, so enjoy your youth as long as possible. Life goes by fast!" I'd wager that most of the people you are insulting are closer to your age than not. I'm in a band with people ten to twenty-five years older than that. Real musicians. Not human jukeboxes.
And what's up with the "Pro 10%" jive? Clubs have very little to gain on having a live band. Just as many people (often more) come to those same venues on DJ and/or kareoke nights. Bands that have the chance to play at these places are plentiful as well. If a band or bands want to raise a fuss over $$, there are plenty more bands who can step up and fill the slot. Not unlike the days when cover bands were a dime-a-dozen here. If Buffilino, or Gattas or whoever, didn't think you were kissing their ass enough, or if you weren't "down", you would be another Albuquerque cover band with no gig and a large, unpaid hairspray bill. Don't re-write history

...Screw making money as a band, I prefer making money as a hired gun...

Then what is the point of your insults and clueless enthusiasm about orginaizing a union?

...When you are older your perspective will change assuming you still play music 20 yrs from now.

What is that supposed to mean? Seems like your perspective is still the same, i.e. playing in cover bands at clubs that are a dying breed. (if you noticed, the nationwide trend at these types of bars is to forego the hassle of live musicians to play cover songs, and have either a dj or an mp3 player)

As far as unions...ummm, they too are a part of history. Toothless entities that barely exist anymore. Hey Mr. Oldguy, don't you remeber what happened twenty years ago when one of the most powerful unions (the airtraffic controllers) took a stand on pay rates and such? Remember what happened? They all lost their fucking jobs and the union was disbanded! Might want to look into that.

I was trying to stay out of this.
As hard as it was for me to figure out what a cover band player who claims he's getting paid well doing it was complaining about, I really was. But you couldn't stop with the insults and revisionist history.
Bottom line?
You are comparing apples to oranges and insulting people who work very hard to create something original.

quote:

Originally posted by black:
Once again, DaveFame cuts to the chase. And seeing that pretty much all the bands and musicians that participate on this board are interested in performing original music and exploring creativity for people who want to hear original, creative music, drumtiger's platform and insults are hard for me to understand.

Let me explain what I mean...(me in bold type)

quote:

Originally posted by drumtiger:
...Most of you are too young to know this but 20 yrs ago the Music Scene here was much better and cover bands made a lot more than nowadays...

That wasn't a "scene". That was musicians being human jukeboxes. Giving up a large percentage of their pay to "promoters" like Buffalino and Chuck D. The closed mindedness of all those involved, and the refusal to allow original music to be played at those dives is one the main reasons the music scene you are now criticizing exists......to break away from being background noise in a Meat Market, while whoring out other people's music.

The real scene was in full swing with many diverse bands. Bands recording and touring, record labels forming and bars that you refer to closing down due to many reasons. One reason was the inherent boringness of watching good musicians lamely hash out music that was already on the radio. Another was that a lot of mainstream Rock at that time was getting boring, predictable and down right lame. This is also the beginning time of the DownTown clubs starting to appear.

By the way, have you ever paid ASCAP for your exploitation of other people's original work?

...I get a kick out of the pro 10% crowd who are probably all under the age of 25.

Bold statement from someone who admits,"You won't see myself or anyone I know downtown ever. Why pay to park to wade thru hoboes in order to pay a cover for local bands? The scene is great for the young, so enjoy your youth as long as possible. Life goes by fast!" I'd wager that most of the people you are insulting are closer to your age than not. I'm in a band with people ten to twenty-five years older than that. Real musicians. Not human jukeboxes.
And what's up with the "Pro 10%" jive? Clubs have very little to gain on having a live band. Just as many people (often more) come to those same venues on DJ and/or kareoke nights. Bands that have the chance to play at these places are plentiful as well. If a band or bands want to raise a fuss over $$, there are plenty more bands who can step up and fill the slot. Not unlike the days when cover bands were a dime-a-dozen here. If Buffilino, or Gattas or whoever, didn't think you were kissing their ass enough, or if you weren't "down", you would be another Albuquerque cover band with no gig and a large, unpaid hairspray bill. Don't re-write history

...Screw making money as a band, I prefer making money as a hired gun...

Then what is the point of your insults and clueless enthusiasm about orginaizing a union?

...When you are older your perspective will change assuming you still play music 20 yrs from now.

What is that supposed to mean? Seems like your perspective is still the same, i.e. playing in cover bands at clubs that are a dying breed. (if you noticed, the nationwide trend at these types of bars is to forego the hassle of live musicians to play cover songs, and have either a dj or an mp3 player)

As far as unions...ummm, they too are a part of history. Toothless entities that barely exist anymore. Hey Mr. Oldguy, don't you remeber what happened twenty years ago when one of the most powerful unions (the airtraffic controllers) took a stand on pay rates and such? Remember what happened? They all lost their fucking jobs and the union was disbanded! Might want to look into that.

I was trying to stay out of this.
As hard as it was for me to figure out what a cover band player who claims he's getting paid well doing it was complaining about, I really was. But you couldn't stop with the insults and revisionist history.
Bottom line?
You are comparing apples to oranges and insulting people who work very hard to create something original.

Good points Mr.Black, I love a good debate. Number 1 I played nothing but original music during all the years I worked for the man. Obviously you are about the same age and understand the work thing. I love original music and used to frequent downtown quite a bit.
If you read the posts a little closer you will discover I wasn't slamming ANY musicians bro! I was slamming cheap ass clubs. Yeah I know all about Buffalino and the old days.

Why do you somehow think playing original music makes you or anyone else freaking special and Rocksquawk should be just for you special people? Most "musicians" not only play great originals but also great covers that they tweek to make their own. Nothing wrong with any genre or anyone's special peccidillos regarding what they think Art is.

I certainly wasn't slamming your band or any band. Again to keep is simple "Pay musicians a decent wage to play ANY music".

Does that clear it up?