I'm away for a day and this thread happens! Shit! Drummers: The kit should be completely assembled before you're time to play comes around and disassembled after you're off the stage. Leave your cymbals on the stands until the stage is clear. I can't fucking stand to see a drummer start breaking down on stage. When I see that shit, I usually jump up on the stage and ask dude real pointedly if he wants some "help getting his shit off the stage. Having the rack setup these days has exponentially decreased the getting shit on/off stage time. I also really appreciate it when various other bands/audience motion for me to hand them something to get it off the stage quicker. I take a good deal of pride in our set/strike time, especially when one sees the amount of gear we(I) use. Here's a reason I love stue: Although he hasn't run sound for us yet, he's got the right idea about controlling stage volume by miking amps and throwing them in the wedge. It's also nice for us when an engineer gets the mix right by having us turn up/down. It's hard to hear onstage and I for one truly appreciate a soundguy who wants his bands to sound good. Ms. Jenny Tonic is right too, fuck anyone who would dare to "check" a soundguy's work.

quote:

Originally posted by thunderqueef:

What has this once proud music scene come to?
When technical peons can dictate the flow of a person's artistic expression we are all truly doomed. I don't know who this ack-jay ass-ay or what ever his name is thinks he is, but we artistes must stand against his ignorant twaddle!

Why are soundmen such PRICKS? Geez, I think it would really be an honor to work with cool artistes and punkers for peanuts. You should probably have to pay a fee to work with some of the cool people you to get to meet. ...I say we declare wednesday night FUCK STUE DAY.

... How can this knob-twiddler ever tell you or me anything after we've seen him exposed? You and your children will see massive suckage like never beheld in a 21-and up show.

WANKERS UNITE!! WED DEC 5 @ AC...STUE'S MEAT!

nice .

As for the on-stage volume, I'm not a fan of "too loud", but there has to be slightly "high" levels of volume if the drummer of a band is a hard hitter. I think it's an insult to ask a drummer to play lighter, therefore no longer in their chosen aesthetic, and absurd to have the drums be louder than everything else. My opinion is based on believing tone and control of tone is an important aspect and is the artist's decision, not the sound guy's. Though the sound guy knows what levels work better in the room they in which they are accustomed, unless they are familiar with the sound the band is trying to achieve the tone and artistic decisions of the same sort should be left to the band. That aside, tip your sound guy/girl and tip the bartenders! As for "checking the soundman's work", I do 'check' it, but only because I wonder at the room and the soundman's decisions and want to know how they are doing that aspect of their job out of curiosity, for I have no formal training and look to their board as a geeky guitarist would check out another guitarist's pedals and amp and guitar, and not out of "is this person doing it right?', which is what I assume the "checking their work" was originally intended to mean in this thread. I promise to never touch your knobs as long as you don't touch mine. Also, stu, I've seen several shows with you doing the sound (and played one) and you are now my third favorite sound guy in town, behind Bobby and Kenny at Burt's (though that sentiment coming from me may not matter to you, and perhaps for good reason).

FIRST- i have never asked a drummer to play quiet, as a (sometime) drummer i know it is not only impossible, but completely asinine to do so.

B - level is a good deal of tone, especially with tube amps, i always tell guys to turn to the level they need to "break up" or whatever they need, then i dial them in in the wedge to allow for audibility onstage. WHAT I DO NOT ABIDE BY is the joker with JCM (or rectifier, or...etc) that turns it up to 4 and says that it HAS to be that loud to get his tone. ESPECIALLY when the jerkoffs that do this have their tone dialed in to ASS. (if you are familiar with Marshalls, you know this setting)

Bass players are an entirely different bag because of the soundwave size and our little stage, the player can often not hear themselves unless their rig is at the curtain(upstage) and they are all the way downstage...and sometimes not even then. this is a real problem for the rockabilly guys(& girls) with uprights .
(bass feedback anyone?)

but i have HAD to ask a player if i can dial their amp in, because they have their gain PEGGED, yet (i can't hear nothin'!) .
i look at their amp and they have the highs all the way up and nothing else. (hyperfest had this problem THREE times)

once, when i asked the guy about his e.q. he said my what? when pressed, he admitted that his amp "doesn't have that, this is a loaner, so i don't know"
he seriously had no idea that you can shape the sound, and everyone in the room was paying for it.

so definitively saying "you can not touch my knobs" is good for a laugh, but often not for the show.


as for compliments and comparisons, we have 2 VERY different rooms, and i don't know how they contend with being next to the stage (beyond a lot of walking around the room), but that won't matter much longer .

I have gotten an awesome wedge sound once at Summerfest. It was about jornal pavilion sized and the sound system was probably worth about 500,000 dollars. We also had a 45 Min sound check. I have never been in a small venue where the wedge could compete with our drummer in volume. Turning down my amp and puting it in the wedge is like listening to lamb of god on a 1950s AM radio. In a live show environment a band that likes their stage sound is going to play a better show. That will grab the audience. A band that plays lively and really feels their music will beat the opinion of a sound guy hands down every time. Like the show at EOS in Amarillo they had the shittiest PA I have ever seen. They just cranked it and the speakers sounded distorted and the vocals were not very understandable but the crowd was into it. It was simply because we had the amps as loud as the drums and we played tight. If you have problems with the PA keeping up with the band then you need to beef it up or just let it distort all to hell. If you have a problem with the audience leaving when a band is too loud then you have a mismatch between audience taste and the bands music. Unless of corse the band sucks everyone knows that the only thing worse then a sucky band is a VERY LOUD SUCKY BAND!! Anyway my point is in a small room don't mic the amps. All your doing is hindering the bands sound by trying to over control their levels. If the bands wanted you to control that much of their sound then they wouldn't have amps. They would have processors that make amp sounds and they would plug straight in. Hell they'd have electronic drums too and honestly I haven't seen a band with electronic drums that I liked yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Skreech:

... everyone knows that the only thing worse then a sucky band is a VERY LOUD SUCKY BAND!! ...

only point there that i agree with.

other THAN the spelling, anyway.

i don't know who would allow you to drive their "shitty" system MORE because it is shitty...

but part of being in a band is accepting that there are other people that can have input on things and that they often have the best interest of everyone in mind.

leaving the club sound to those that are on stage just begs the question- why have a soundguy at all?

why not just let the bands set up and play as loud as they want and hope for the best?

because it is a business, and that would be bad for business.

i am not suggesting that you can only have your amp at practice level, as i said i tell them to turn to where they need to be and go from there. 1 time out of 5 ( in this town, that's pretty good) i have to tell them that they are blowing everyone else away and to dial back a little.

i RARELY need to put anything in the house mains when the players know what they are doing.

HONESTLY i only started micing shit because all of these punk/metal/shit-rock guys would come in from tour, see that nothing was miced and assume that they had to turn up so that you could hear them at the front door.

two problems with that:

-everyone else in the band would try to match them .

- the front of the bar often DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR THEM. that's why they are in the front of the bar.

saying the soundguy is being "over control"ling is an odd position for someone that posts on here as a sound guy, i find that frankly a little puzzling...

unless you are trying to play "good guy" with your potential clients in this forum, i can not imagine that you would allow some band of yayhoos to just have their way with your personal system.

just allowing the band to set their own levels FOR ANY CLUB is folly, because 9 out of 10 club bands have someone that ALWAYS feels they need to be 3 times as loud as anyone else .( mostly because they are deaf themselves) and without some checks and balances, everyone would just keep turning up until the bar was empty.

just 2 weeks ago i heard from a guitarist: "i've never been told to turn up before"
and i only had to do this because i DIDN'T mic the amps, so it works both ways.

quote:

but i have HAD to ask a player if i can dial their amp in, because they have their gain PEGGED, yet (i can't hear nothin'!) .
i look at their amp and they have the highs all the way up and nothing else. (hyperfest had this problem THREE times)

once, when i asked the guy about his e.q. he said my what? when pressed, he admitted that his amp "doesn't have that, this is a loaner, so i don't know"
he seriously had no idea that you can shape the sound, and everyone in the room was paying for it.

so definitively saying "you can not touch my knobs" is good for a laugh, but often not for the show.

Aggghhh! Only highs turned up on the amp!?!? Your job deals with a level of obliviousness that I did not think made it out to the live venue. And yes, knob touching comments are only intended for the purpose of humor, though I do happen to know how to EQ to my liking.

I never mic the guitars in a room that small. Especially in a room that is wider then it is deep in reference to the stage. I have miced guitars in rooms twice that size only so I can put guitars in the drummers monitor if need be.

Yes I have let yahoos go haywire on my PA. I'll crank it until it matches the drums in a small room. I match the drums and if there is still a loud guitar problem then I tell the drummer he's awesome and I wanna hear him more but the guitars are upstaging him. Then telling the guitarist the drummer is plenty strong and the amps need to back off. Most of the time the singer will say he can't hear himself in the monitors and I'll say thats all I got and the amps are too loud and the most egotistical member of the band will tell them he needs room. If a band can't sort out their stage sound and they are still to loud then I give everything I can in the monitors until they go into thermal shutdown. Then at the end of the song look at the monitors like their broken and the band gets scared and backs off. Stage sound problems are rare. I rarely have a problem with the mains keeping up either.

I'm not going to get clients from rocksquawk. My postings about doing sound are a shot in the dark.

If you think punk and metal is shit rock then you shouldn't be doing sound for punk and metal bands and you don't have their best interests in mind.

Punk rockers crank a shitty PA because its shitty.

If you are more concerned about the people at the front of the bar not listening to the music then the people by the stage, don't book loud rock bands. (aka shit rock) But wait we don't want all those shit rock customers just going to burts now would we.

I'm not an over controlling sound guy.

I understand the balancing act you have to maintain as a soundman between audience and band and bar owner. I'm just saying relax. Being a sound guy is a cool job. If the crowd and the staff get pissed about a band then you gotta talk to the booking guy.

Thunderqueef....

Well, I don't really know what to say. It seems like you haven't been playing all that long and think that every time you get a chance to play out, it's your duty to be obnoxious.

Sound guys/gals have a job to do. What they do either makes you or breaks you. Walking around and beating on stuff doesn't make their job any easier.

Ever hear of a practice pad? You can bring one along and do your precious paradiddles (I prefer Swiss Army triplets and inverted flam ratamaques, but that's just me) and not bother anyone.

I played a club in Mississippi where the sound guy had a big red SUCK button on his board. I asked him what it was, since I wasn't familiar with it. "Its a special button I push when a band pisses me off."

Think about that.

.


---> Of course a touring band is going to tear down faster than a local. They have a routine and they have practiced it and it's fresh.

quote:

Bass players are an entirely different bag because of the soundwave size and our little stage, the player can often not hear themselves unless their rig is at the curtain(upstage) and they are all the way downstage...and sometimes not even then. this is a real problem for the rockabilly guys(& girls) with uprights .
(bass feedback anyone?)

Yeah. At Atomic and Burt's I often can't hear myself on stage even when I know I must be too loud at the door (or someplace). Both those places are weird as an audience member as well, I have to walk around to find the spot that sounds best and it's different each time. 20 ft can sound like a whole other band. I'm more into simple bass anyway, so I don't want to crank it, I just need to hear that it is there. Sorry if it sucks.

I don't mind suggestions from a sound guy. In a practice room or at home I can spend twenty minutes turning knobs until it sounds just how I want, but I don't want to do that on stage. Sound is such a crapshoot in this town. I pretty much know it's not going to be ideal, I know the first song is the real soundcheck, and like the first pancake it is a sacrifice to the gods, and kinda plan for that. Unfortunately I can't plan myself any smarter or my equipment any better. I've been changing pieces recently, and I hate my tone. Hate it. I need different equipment. I hate it so much, but am poor right now.

I've always kinda figured that not being able to hear myself in the monitor is a hint to turn something else down. I can't always turn down a bandmate (If I had the ability I'd rather undrunken them anyway). I'm not into hints anyway. It's passive agressive and it just pisses both parties off. Tell me, don't punish me.

I hate this: you have a friend in the front row or someplace, and after the show you ask them how it was: "oh, ______ sounded sucky." Well, thanks for the tip afterwards, dipshit. I'd much rather know something was off when I can still do something about it.

I hate this: soundguys who keep turning knobs the entire time. I understand you have to hear it to dial it in right, you may be desperatly trying to get rid of something shitty, I appreciate the hustle. But every single song/set/whole night? Constantly adjusting is hard to keep up with, is stressful, and distracts from playing. Especially during a song; to just drop something out, or suddenly crank/surge it, I hate that. I can back off a microphone if I'm too loud, I don't care to sway and bob the whole show. Especially true with how hard I'm playing. If I turn a knob I always tell the sound guy. our songs are short and if something is off, unless it hurts or will break something, maybe it's best to just wait it out for this one.

I hate this: soundguys who are scared of girls or sexist and make girls in bands sound bad. I swear this happens. Nobody who's still working right now, that I know of, but I've noticed it too often. Somebody back me up here?

This bugs, but not as much: the sound guy dials it in for the first band and then just leaves. If that's what I'm going to get I'll work with it as best I can. If they go to the bar or can, that is. If they are smoking a joint in their car then that sucks. They could have done that during the previous bands' teardown time. I've used the socyermom/atomic house backline equipment so much, you'd think I'd know it by now. I swear it must be the other bands who are fucking that thing up.

Soundguys vary wildly around here. Sometimes we sound awful and sometimes great, on the exact same equipment. Sometimes the crowd has a different opinion than we do, good or bad. Frustrating.

Personally I go to a rock bar to hear bands and I expect it to be loud even at the door. It may not be the best idea business-wise or sound-wise, it's just a fact. That said, I've been watching myself carefully from the first sign of hearing loss (at age 24). My ears get tired fast. If I'm playing third, I'm not spending more than a few minutes in the stage room watching the opening band at Atomic. If I do, I'll be too deaf when I'm onstage.

haha, yeah, we are way loud for our style... bellmont is pretty loud too.

quote:

Originally posted by Skreech:
I never mic the guitars in a room that small. Especially in a room that is wider then it is deep in reference to the stage. I have miced guitars in rooms twice that size only so I can put guitars in the drummers monitor if need be.

Yes I have let yahoos go haywire on my PA.

If you think punk and metal is shit rock then you shouldn't be doing sound for punk and metal bands and you don't have their best interests in mind.

If you are more concerned about the people at the front of the bar not listening to the music then the people by the stage, don't book loud rock bands. (aka shit rock) But wait we don't want all those shit rock customers just going to burts now would we.

I'm not an over controlling sound guy.

I understand the balancing act you have to maintain as a soundman between audience and band and bar owner. I'm just saying relax. Being a sound guy is a cool job. If the crowd and the staff get pissed about a band then you gotta talk to the booking guy.

1. i believe i stated that i DO mic amps solely so i can put them in monitors.

B. Baiting the bands to do what i want, i must agree with Levi, is stupid and counter-productive. In life as in work, i am cursed with a brutal candor, and it has been as much a challenge as it has a benefit (almost)

III. I listed it as punk/metal/shit rock
the key here is the / which indicates ( i think ) multiple things being referred to at the same time.

5. I did not call YOU an over controlling sound guy.

g. I am not more worried about the front of the bar, just mindful of the people that pay EVERYONE - the customers drinking.

Xi. I don't count so gooder


i KNOW it is a good job, i see great bands (sometimes) that i would not have heard about or come across otherwise and they become my favorites. (see LAST NIGHT) i am also afforded the opportunity to put my 2 and half cents in sometimes on bookings, (also LAST NIGHT) and this makes my job easier when the bands gel together well, because i am more interested in the show as a whole.

i do not own the gear, so i would never push into thermal overload on purpose, nor would i if it WERE my gear.
reckless disregard for common sense is not rock n roll , it is reckless disregard for cause and effect.

quote:

i do not own the gear, so i would never push into thermal overload on purpose, nor would i if it WERE my gear.
reckless disregard for common sense is not rock n roll , it is reckless disregard for cause and effect.

sounded like something got blown/was clipping bad towards the end of their set. did they blow somethin?

the bass player has a real fondness for that CRACKLE BOOM in the (first) last song of their set.

believe me it was in his rig.

first time i saw them, they did a mostly straight ahead rock set, then tore into that last noise-fest song and i 'bout shit my pants.

they have been moving more and more toward the heavier thing - see "when the tigers broke free"

geeez, what a great fucking night.

yeah, good band, solid rhythm section fo sho!!!!

i like you and billy's set as well. nice work on the kit with the brushes!! those were tasty subtle little beats. dug it dude!

how'd the recording come out?

just starting to re-rig the control room, will hopefully have something posted by manana ...

MY GUESS though is IT RAWKED!

Let me clear this up.

quote:

saying the soundguy is being "over control"ling is an odd position for someone that posts on here as a sound guy, i find that frankly a little puzzling...

I'm not an over controlling sound guy.

quote:

1. i believe i stated that i DO mic amps solely so i can put them in monitors.

I said "drum monitor" in a room twice the size.

quote:

B. Baiting the bands to do what i want, i must agree with Levi, is stupid and counter-productive. In life as in work, i am cursed with a brutal candor, and it has been as much a challenge as it has a benefit (almost)

I wouldn't say baiting the bands. I tell them what I can't hear and then why. I always talk to the player I can't hear well enough because they are in charge of their sound and they know their band. It is simply a way to acknowledge that the band is in charge of the stage and I am there to serve the bands needs.

If a band can't sort out their stage sound then I let them learn. If I tell them how I think they could sound better and they disregard it there is nothing more I can do. Most of the time its a new band and usually not well practiced and I know their not going to put on the greatest show anyway. In that situation you just do everything you can. For me I know I can let my monitors go into thermal. I have only done it on purpose twice. Mackie has a great design on their active speakers and I have put them to the test. I know what they can handle.

Also wouldn't, putting mics on the guitars just so they turn down, be baiting the band.

I hate doing quotes so listen to what I mean and not what I say DAMMIT!!

Everyone knows that ultimately the venue is in charge. They give the stage time to the band and they pay the band. But when the band is on stage they are in charge of that stage. However any band with any experience knows that the sound guy usually has influence in the venue and they must listen to him and respect him and the gear and the other bands. Its a whole system of checks and balances like in politics only its not written. Hey when we do the band olympics we could sign a live show constitution.

Wow the simularities are striking. Everyone always hates on and bitches at the sound guy, like congress. Everyone looks to the band for insperation but sees them as ass holes, like the president. And behind the scenes the venue is really in charge like the supreme court.

Oh yeah and the last part of that quote about candor I couldn't agree with more because 100% of what us sound guys do is 100% subjective. But the nice thing about never being right is that your never wrong either. (Kung fu movie dub voice here) SUCH IS THE WAY OF A SOUND MANS HONOR!

quote:

like the president

And he's at LEAST twice as drunk as any of us. And illiterate like a motherfucker too.

quote:

Originally posted by Skreech:
... And behind the scenes the venue is really in charge like the supreme court.

what i want to see is where in the electoral process it mentions "the supreme court shall step in"


fuck, how did we get on to politics ?



i wish i was dead

Some of these have been mentioned, but the Creepy Crawl in St. Louis has a pretty damn good list:

Top 39 Annoying Things That Bands Do

http://www.creepycrawl.com/top39txt.htm